CAPS’ Vice President of Sales for Venues, Music Tours & Live Events, Todd Dyer, sat down with Artist Manager Stuart Ross to discuss how the industry is working behind the scenes to keep live alive … and what it will look like when concerts and live productions return.
Be sure to follow our three-part Crew Corner series featuring Todd Dyer, where the Live Events expert also weighs in on the latest headlines and interviews Disco Donnie Presents' VP, Evan Bailey.
Todd Dyer: How has your day-to-day job changed during the pandemic?
Stuart Ross: It’s not dissimilar to anybody else on the executive side of the touring industry. I’m a personal manager, and most of our income is from live. And live is gone. So, to that extent, we’ve put together some streaming shows, we try to put together sponsorships, I’m working on a television project, and what we’re doing is trying to keep our brands alive. We want to make sure the brands stay alive so that when we announce that we’re going back out there, people pay attention to it. People’s focus has not necessarily been on their favorite artist. It’s been on staying healthy and making money, whether you’re in this business or not in this business. We’re just one of tens of thousands of different interests that any particular fan may have.
Todd: How has the pandemic affected live entertainment through your eyes?
Stuart: Live entertainment is down 95% minimum, which means 95% of people working in the live entertainment industry are unemployed. And this is an incredibly big deal because the vast majority of people who work in live entertainment are independent contractors and project based: roadies, soundmen, lighting designers, video designers, stagehands … we could go on and on. These people are unemployed, and it pretty much happened immediately, because one day people were working and the next, the world shut down. The live entertainment industry is a funny place. We’re the first to close and the last to reopen. And this is a very significant problem.
Todd: What kinds of resources are available out there for Crew Members wondering what the future holds?
Stuart: The closest thing is an app that’s blowing up right now called Clubhouse, where there are live discussions going on almost 24 hours a day about the future of live entertainment. I’ve been hearing lots of discussions from people about what’s going to happen next. For example, Covid Compliance Officers becoming part of upcoming tours. There’s been a lot of speculation about shows being hybrid, which is to say partially live and partially live stream. This is a whole big issue that involves rights, technology, costs, and quality, but intelligent people are talking about the fact that this could happen. If that did happen, that actually creates more jobs because if a tour is going to start to carry a live-stream engineer, director, camera people, and so on, then that’s more jobs, which is very promising.
Todd: We assume we'll see tour economics shift when we return. How long are you thinking that could impact the viability and routing of tours?
Stuart: This is an important question. And it goes deeper. There are definitely going to be more costs. And who’s going to pick those up? Well, venues are in as much trouble as any other entertainment business. Are they going to raise their hands and say, “We’ll take care of those costs if that means we can get more shows?” Or will it be a situation where there are so many artists that will be looking to tour as soon as the green light turns on that every single venue will be filled every single day, and therefore, nobody will be motivated to make deals? I don’t know, but these variables are sitting out there. I’m thinking it’s not until April that we’re going to figure out exactly where this business is going to go on a financial level.
Todd: Is the Event Safety Alliance getting involved in any of these discussions?
Stuart: I’m a board member of the Event Safety Alliance. At our last board meeting, all of these subjects were brought to the table, and there’s an awful lot of people who are in the live entertainment industry who are hedging their bets by becoming high-level Covid Compliance Officers, just in case that skillset becomes necessary. It’s potentially another job that someone can transition into.
Todd: Would that be sustained long-term? Will these Covid protocols ever be a thing of the past?
Stuart: Back in my touring days, I spent a fair amount of time in Asia. We would go to Japan, and on the trains, 50% of the people were wearing masks. This was 10 years ago. They would wear masks even if they had a slight cold. They didn’t want to cough on people and get them sick. It’s simply a good practice. I would at least hope that people remain considerate to other people. I don’t like wearing masks, but I’ve gotten used to it …. and I don’t have to shave as often.
Todd: Back to the saturation of the market. How much can it bear? Do you sense any co-productions or Supertours on the horizon?
Stuart: That is absolutely going to happen. It doesn’t even have to be a Supertour. There’s every good reason for co-productions to happen. If you take two artists that can sell, let’s say, 1,000 seats, and they’re not each selling 1,000 seats each to the same person, and they go out together, theoretically, they could sell 2,000 seats. A show like that is far more profitable and frees up an entire venue. Instead of two 1,000-seat venues having shows, you have one 2,000-seat venue. There’s every good reason for this to work. Plus, to the extent that two artists can share a certain amount of expenses, whether it’s shared crew or production, this is a win for everyone, So I absolutely believe people are going to get creative.
Todd: When we’re back out there, what are some of the changes you anticipate happening?
Stuart: Concerts may be more expensive because there’s going to be costs involved that we have never anticipated before, like extra cleaning and Covid compliance. Some venues may say they’re going to charge you more rent because they’re selling less food and beverage. Ticketing being on your mobile devices is probably going to happen. I think the days of paper tickets are gone, although that’s not 100% possible for people without a smartphone. If they buy a ticket, you have to figure out a way to let them in. Their scanners are going to have to read barcodes off a paper ticket in addition to your smartphone. There are going to be a lot of other changes. People are talking about the possibility of having to show if you’ve been vaccinated or take a rapid Covid test. There are a lot of variables here and it could look very different.
Todd: What are the risks as you start strategizing touring?
Stuart: The first thing is, generally speaking, live entertainment is not going to reopen until we’re 100% ready. There’s been talk that there are shows going on in March in South Dakota. That seems risky, but if somebody’s going to do it, they’re going to do it. There will be outliers, but the fact is, the country has to be 100% open before we can tour for a whole bunch of reasons. The first is the cost of touring has a startup and a shutdown component—design, rehearsals, programming, preproduction, and so on—all of those costs, which can be significant, can only be amortized over the number of shows you do. So, if you’re forced into a small geographic area that has decided that it’s safe, and the artist wants to play shows, your costs are going to be ridiculous, because how many shows can you play in Florida? Five? Six, maybe. On a normal tour that has multiple trucks and busses, those costs are going to be significant, and the profit is going to be minimal if at all. So, we can’t do that. We have to be able to route everywhere.
The second thing is we’re booking shows now. We’re holding dates. Everybody is. We don’t know if or when we’re going to put them on sale. We’re holding them on the “what if?” But, if you put a show on sale too early and then you have to cancel it, then you have the refund issue, and on top of it, you’re losing credibility with your fans because you’re not telling them the truth. And when you lose their trust, you’re pretty much going to lose that fan. Credibility is everything.
Todd: What about festivals? There was an announcement from Danny Wimmer Presents saying August. How much should we take this with a grain of salt?
Stuart: I’m a big fan of Danny Wimmer. The guy’s a real trendsetter in the industry, but I’m looking at Coachella to tell us the story. They have canceled April, which was no surprise to anyone. The question is “are they going to do it in October, or is it going to go into 2022?” I think if they knew, we’d know. Festivals are complex. On one hand, the argument could be they’re outdoors, which makes them inherently a safer event, but are the fans going to feel that way?
Todd: What’s the long-term outlook for live streaming?
Stuart: Streaming adds an awful lot of dynamic issues. The first is, we’re trying to sell tickets. If you give a show away at $5 or $10, are they going to buy tickets when that show comes to your city? The answer is, it cannot adversely affect ticket sales because then we’re cutting off our nose to spite our face. The second thing is, let’s pretend it’s a standard concert in a club, theater, or arena. The cost of a quality stream is very expensive. If you’re doing just audio, you can say “we’ll take a board mix,” which is essentially an output from the front-of-house sound console. That’s probably not going to sound great because the way a show is mixed for a PA system is not the same way a show needs to be mixed for a broadcast or a record.
If you're willing to pay the cost of doing live streaming professionally, you had better be selling a lot of streams to justify the cost, which could easily be in the six figures before you even blink. And, if the client has the fanbase and the ticket sales pattern that will justify this, God bless. I think it’s great. But, for the people still trying to figure out how to make shows profitable, I’m not sure live streaming is a road you want to go down.
Todd: Can streaming ever replace the actual experience of going to a concert?
Stuart: There’s a wonderful dynamic about sharing an experience with strangers. And that’s the difference between streaming and live concerts. We want to be around each other; we’re social animals. There are certain things you can give a fan from a streaming show that you can’t give from a live show. You can take cameras into the dressing room, for example. But overall, is it going to replace concerts? No. It will probably supplement concerts, but only in the right scenario.
Todd: How can we better support the industry from the administrative side?
Stuart: Whatever systems our industries combined can bring to job and financial security to below-the-line Crew Members, we need to figure it out. Health insurance is a big one. We’re going to adversely affect our staffing abilities because people will have been out of work for a year and a half to two years. What can we do collectively as an industry to make this a safer place to work financially? We should give people putting these concerts on guidance on saving, investing, retirement options, and affordable healthcare options. Perhaps finding a list of approved tax preparers and CPAs who can make multi-state filing taxes less expensive. A conversation amongst affected crew people would be beneficial.
Todd: Do you have any words of encouragement for Crew Members?
Stuart: Be patient. I have to wake up every day and say the same thing. [Live] is not over, it’s going to come back, and it’s going to come back big. And you have off time now. Use this time to take courses, read books, reconnect with people, volunteer at Core, start a new hobby—all the things you don’t get to do when you’re on tour. This is also a time to build yourself up as a person.
Todd: What do you miss most about live events?
Stuart: I miss the connection with people. Live events work because it’s a team effort—because on tour there are dozens to hundreds of people who work toward a deadline that you can’t move. Concerts don’t move their deadlines. 8 o’clock is 8 o’clock, no matter what. The amount of cooperation and comradery that achieve that 8 o’clock goal is everything. The moment that rolls around and the house lights go off and the people scream, you’ve done your job. That’s what I miss: I miss 8 o’clock.
Want to Catch Up With Todd?
The world may have pressed pause on live shows, but Todd and the rest of the CAPS crew are gearing up behind the scenes for their return. For the latest insights on the world’s “return to live” and how you can be ready for it, drop Todd a business inquiry, comment, or a note to chat more.